MSC

[PopsGrandson]

Having raced over 15 years here in the Midwest I've seen quite a bit as far as rules, rules changing and a number of different new racing divisions come and go.
Here's how it generally goes. (1st year) Cheap competitive racing, great idea!
(2nd year) Go faster! Change rules, Spend alot more money!
(3rd Year) Go Faster! Change rules, Spend alot more money!
It goes on and on and on!!!!!
The MSC has a little different delema. Your looking at cars built spanning a 30 year period or more. Cars from the mid 80's have a huge Technilogical advantage over the earlier cars. These cars have a chance to be far superior to the rest of the pack. In time, when we all get a bunch of seat time, I think this will be much more noticable. Luckily for right now, there are a few guy's with big iron that are brave enough to hammer down and make a show of it.
I think that MSC and VMSC are a great combination!
Something for those who gotta Show and something for those that gotta GO !!!!!

I can't tell you what a thrill it was to see your cars lined up making a few pace laps waiting for the green to drop last year! With some luck hopfully I'll be joining you this coming year.

[Rat 21]

This is not a club for racing. I have seen it all . All it will take is one mistake on the track . It could be by any of us .And this will come to a halt. practice laps seem to be working for the drivers and fans . so why are we pushing it. thanks for my to words. i do enjoy all the time with you guys...

[chromedome]

Actually this is a club for racing. That is why we have safety rules. And the only way I can see a problem happening at a track that the track would not want us back is if cars that are Not safe try to participate. By "safe" I mean fuel cells, good belts, cages, helmets, fire suits, etc. Unfortunately some people try to set up shows but neglect to tell the track that their cars are not all safe. When one those gets in a bad possition THEN we will ALL have to pay the price.

[vintagemodman]

I still don't think racing is the answer. Instead of trying to preserve the history, some are trying to re-create it or worse yet, possibly destroy it. I do agree on all the safety factors involved with going fast but what about the basic car itself which was probably sitting out in the weather for 30 years or so. A lot of fatigue starts from the inside out. It might look safe from the outside but what is the inside like? Then there is the history. what if one of these classics gets involved in an accident and is damaged beyond repair. There are so few of these cars left to begin with. It would be a shame if one would be destroyed. I think the only logical answer is to build a new modified that looks old. Lets face it, probably 75% of the people in the stands are probably too young to remember seeing these cars run at all. They are use to seeing their late models and sprint cars fly around the track at hair raising speeds. When the old mods come out trying to race at half those speeds what kind of show will that be? I know some won't agree with me but I think we should stick with pace laps and a few hot laps to pay tribute to the men who started it all and keep preserving the history.

[ghubrex]

I am commenting from the outside looking in--I don't live in Wisconsin, but I am familar with the issue, as I belong to four vintage clubs, including VMSC, and own two vintage modifieds that I have been running in various parts of the country for eight years. To race or put on exhibitions--which is better? Vintage exhbitions allow folks in the stands, especially those who remember modifieds on the track in the 60's and 70's, to see and hear the cars, and it usually provokes some pretty strong emotional responses. What seems to work best is an event consisting of something above simply idling around, but not competitive, give-and-take dicing. To actually race 25-35 year old cars, even when they have been updated with new belts, tires, plumbing, etc, is (in my opinion) INSANE on a number of levels. Two main reasons: 1. the "racing" is probably not going to be very good. In fact, in comparison to a contemporary IMCA mod program or 360 sprint program, it's going to suck. The average fan in the seat will most likely enjoy a low-risk (to us) exhibition as much if not more than a half-baked version of a competitive race where we look foolish and/or inept. 2. If you guys ball one of these things up, and from what I can tell, that is highly likely to happen, the rest of us who are trying to responsibly grow the sport/hobby will suffer the next time your local track promoter has a discussion with his insurance carrier and lets slip the word "vintage". Each time a "racing incident" happens, VMSC and other vintage organizations get painted with the same brush, and if the worse happens and somebody gets seriously hurt or killed, we all go down the tubes. If you want to go race, great! Buy an IMCA mod or entry level sprinter, or hobby stock, for that matter, and have fun. Leave the vintage cars--a rare and precious commodity, to historical preservation activities, including on-track non-competitive exhibitions to those of us who care deeply about these cars and want them to be more than garage queens who have been forced off the track by insurance regulations. Can't happen? Talk to a track owner/promoter about it. I have, often and extensively--and consistently they voice grave concerns about safety of old cars on the track and some of them are getting cold feet when we ask for track time. Be realistic, be responsible, for gosh sake. VMSC has come so far and has cautiously stepped toward respectable on-track events. One bad season of "racing" as has been suggested here, could undo lots of people's hard work and dedication. Sorry this is so long, but I have hard--no, impossible time staying neutral on the issue.

[Paul Kuyawa]

I agree with Gary 110%. These cars are not meant to be raced. Preserve the history! At a recent Milwaukee Mile event the Champ cars took to the track and nobody went nuts they all used their heads. Vintage cars are meant to preserve history not destroy it. Rob Sneddon, editor of Speedway Illustrated put it like this, I
love vintage race cars but hate vintage racing. Way to difference in speed an driver ability. The guys racing these old cars will hurt themselves or someone else. Ten the whole deal STARTED BY JOHN SURGES will be done. Building a new car and hanging old tin on it does not make a vintage race car. 20-30 years of age is what makes a vintage race car. The other group is only trying to capitalize on what John Surges started. They say
coping is the highest form of flattery, well John the othe group is paying you a huge compliment by copying what you started.
Paul

[chromedome]

Hi evereyone.
I think its time to get a few things straightened out.
First, the Milwaukee Stock Car Auto Racing Association is NOT an all out balls to the wall move it or loose it club. We have rules for on track conduct as well as rules for safety. We race for fun. What is being missed here is the fact that we are putting on a show for the fans. We aren't running for points or money. We try to run in a group and try to look the best we can for the fans. Anyone who gets out of hand and drives crazy will have to deal with the board. We have rules in place that can fine or even ban a driver if his actions are improper. Since this all fairly new to us we are still learning. Rules are changing, different ways of doing this are being tried. I am a member of 4 different vintage racing clubs also. And if you go to an IMCA Oldtimers show or to a NVSR show you will see guys who drive a whole lot harder than any of us do. But they too have rules about driving beyond your abilities.
Second, there have been "racing incidents". A man died at Hastings MN in 2002. His sprint car ran over the wheel of another one that popped out of gear. Unfortunately the car was an uncaged car and his arm was severed. He died before the flight for life could arive. But now only caged cars are allowed to run. I am looking forward to attending this show again this year. This will my 3rd year there. And it is obvious that this racing incident" didn't send us all "down the tubes". As far balling one of these up? Yes, accidents are bound to happen. Even at exhibition speed things can go wrong. Tie rods break, spindles snap, throttles stick, rear ends lock up, steering fails for one reason or another. And drivers do things the guy behind them didn't expect. Welcome to the real world. These same things happen on the streets. No one can control all the possibillities. So we do our best to make this as safe as possible. That is all we can do. A sprint car at Wimot last year was taking hot laps when his throttle stuck and he was launched off the track into the side of the track promoters pick up truck. The promoters leg was broken and he was on crutches for the rest of the season. Things happen.
I have a great deal of respect for John Sugess. He has brought me something that I never knew I would ever have. I have a peice of my childhood and a peice of my father. I have the great honor of driving one of my fathers cars on the same tracks he raced on. But I am doing this as responsibly and with as much safety as I can. We are not out to set fast time only to show the fans what these cars were like in the days I remember as a child.
Check out the July issue of Stock Car Racing. There is a big article on vintage racing. We are not the only club doing this.
It appears to me that there are people posting their comments here that are ill informed. Vintage racing is happening all over the world every weekend. Some are all out racing, some are exhibition races. I think we should wait until the end of the season and see what the fans think after we have raced instead of deciding what they want to see before we have even taken to the track.

Mark Kraemer
Vice President
Milwaukee Stock Car Auto Racing Association

[Paul Kuyawa]

The Febuary 2005 issue of Speedway Illustrated has an excellent column about the do's and dont's about vintage racing. Written by the editor Rob Sneddon.
I suggest evetone read this column and take it to heart. Rob and I go back to the days of the know defunct Open Wheel Magazine and had a long interesting conversation about the subject of racing old cars. Please for everyones safety and well being leave the racing to guys with equipment capable of racing.
If some folks are so hell bent on racing go get a 360 sprint car and you can race every Saturday at Plymouth and it will be done safely.
If the MSC respects John Surges so much why did you go book shows that have been traditionally VMSC events, Lake Geneva and Wilmot it was a slap in John's face and you guys know it. If you want to race go buy a
new car and have at it.
Some of us, myself included toiled under supermodifieds and sprint cars for well over 25 yearsI wonder what kind of maintaince program you"racers" are going to pull.
Owning a race car does not always mean your a racer.
This subject has gone far enough.
A direct quote from Mr. Sneddon in his column is, "Much as I beleivein trying to preserve this sport's history, I don't believe in trying to relive it".
Quote used with permission of Speedway Illustrated.

[SKraemer]

How about the Letters to the Editor area of the April 2005 issue of Speedway Illustrated? There were two letters that disagreed with Mr. Sneddon's outlook on Vintage Racing.
If your opinion is that these 'restored cars' are not fit for racing that is fine but why don't we let the "fans" decide for themselves if they think the 'racing' is boring. Speculations are being made, on both ends, for thousands of others by a select few and that is just absurd. By the end of the racing season, it will be known whether the fans loved or hated the MSC races and the number and quality of 'shows' in 2006 will let everyone know where the VMSC and MSC stand. Remember, the VMSC and MSC are two separate clubs and it seems that quite a few people are having a hard time realizing that. One is for 'racing' and the other for 'still shows and pace laps'. They are not interchangeable and each club has it's own purpose.
I have been to other vintage clubs shows and can tell you the fans that we have seen DO NOT think it is boring. At the IMCA Oldtimers Hastings, MN event the grandstands are full and you have a very hard time finding room to stand along the fence and the only cars racing are Vintage Cars. There is a Vintage Spring Nationals event in Lansing, MN on Memorial Day this year. It is a two day event and the only cars 'racing' will be Vintage Cars. There, so far, are entries from Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska & Arkansas. The different clubs listed with entries are: NVSR/WI (hosting the event), IMCA Oldtimers/MN, GOTRA/NE and OVRA/AK. So I guess this proves that no one wants to see or race vintage cars.
Safety is important and the MSC is striving to be as safe as it possibly can, nothing can be 100% here. Being honest with the tracks is a good start. Working with the tracks about what safety issues they may have about the MSC mods is another.
The season is starting, let's all have fun no matter what form of Vintage Racing or Shows you enjoy. Everyone has their own opinion about which is better.

[GH]

I think there is a fundamental difference between vintage specials like the IMCA Oldtimers show and a vintage component that is added to a weekly program, which is where I am leery of vintage racing, as opposed to exhibitions--I'm not sure the product will be a appealing to the differing audiences. A Hastings-type event is attended by vintage enthusiasts of all stripes, and yes, they are most often enthusiastic and appreciative. The weekly race fan might be a bit harder to please if they come to see close, competitive racing and instead see (and I quote from a recent event I attended) "a bunch of old, slow cars". Your experience may differ; as you say, time will tell. It is interesting that the tragic Hastings show from 2002 was cited as an example of "don't worry"--I find it an example of exactly why we need to be wary of vintage cars in racing formats. It is true we didn't all go down the tubes, as I put it, after the death of a vintage driver, but I think it is faulty logic to use it as an example of it can't happen here. Yes, you and I can still go this summer, but as you stated, it is caged cars only--what about the hundreds of vintage non-caged sprinters who might want to go? Indeed, it is down the tubes for them in regard to this event. My point is: to some eyes, vintage is vintage, uncaged sprint or sturdy modified, they can all be lumped together by those who decide if we can or can't hit the track. Further example: one of the very biggest and best vintage events was held annually at the Highbanks of Belleville, in Belleville Kansas until 2001. It was a non-competitive, exhibition format event, yet out of safety concerns, the event was abolished, not only for uncaged midgets and sprints, but for modifieds, super mods, and everything in between. The track board of directors has made it impossible to resurrect this event in the interceding years and their reason: insurance It is important to keep the venue in mind in this example: Belleville is one of the most storied, oldest, tradition-aware track to be found--anywhere. The have a museum for the track in town, and community that is knowledgeable and supportive, yet the insurance issue rules the day. My point is, if Vintage cars were banished there, it can happen in Wisconsin as well, especially if vintage cars come into unfortunate circumstances in what are clearly competitive racing situations. Of course, stuff happens, race cars can bite, there are unpredictable elements at play whenever cars are on a race track. BUT, the dropping of a green flag to begin a RACE, as opposed to an exhibition, is like waving the proverbial red flag in front of the bull in as far as insurance is concerned. The people who decide what you and I can or can't do look at Racing and exhibitions with very different eyes--ask an insurance carrier yourself, please. Racing simply increases the risks already present any time you strap in. I stand by what I said: racing incidents can have huge impacts on all vintage activities.
Maybe you guys are right, a trial season is the only way to guage the success of the racing venture that is about to unfold, and it is a free country, you can do as you please. I have the concerns I have already expressed, and they most certainly do not arise from an ill informed point of view; I have further doubts that even the broad racing community of Eastern Wisconsin can support two vintage organizations. It would be unrealistic or naive to maintain that moves made to start a new organization have not compromised what was in place and the hard work it took to get VMSC off the ground. My hope is that it does not result in the ultimate collapse of both.

[BR]

As a pure fan in the stands guy ( though a long time MSC watcher going back to 1959 Waukegan) I am thrilled to be witness to and participate in this great moving historical adventure that both VMSC and MSC are making happen. John Sturges would be a hero in my book if nothing else ever happened. He, and his associates, have woven an important part of the fabric of Wisconsin short track racing. Now however... I do believe there is a safety issue at work. Part mechanical-age and part driver-expectations. I would like a compromise that is 1/2 speed exhibition. No one is going to be able to throw those 30 year old cars around the track like Melius, Johnson or Smith, yet thats what I as a fan remember and ``expect to see``. I doubt my fan expectation from 30 years ago will be met. I want to see them run but not at the increased risk of a bad accident ( someone could be hurt at very loww speed anyway) I will stand behind the vintage program whenever I can and believe this effort truely honors the guys who made it happen right after WW2. Thank you all for your hard work and love of this sport.

[gh]

Well, the season is about half over. There were a number of views expressed at the ouset that the area could not support two vintage clubs, and concern toward if one club screws up, it could make life miserable for the other. It appears at this point that the hard work done by VMSC is indeed being compromised substantially by the intention of MSC to race. Nice job, guys. The way things appear to be unfolding, it will be next to impossible to get vintage track time for anyone, and after the years of work to get the ball rolling, it's pretty hard to comprehend. Of course, the season is only half over....

[RWEREW]

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[RWEREW]

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